http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship I'm Faith and this is my blog Thu, 09 Sep 2010 03:16:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1013 Brando Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:55:37 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1013 Thank you for your insights. It's made me think about my own recovery from pornography and how I used it as a way to control my world when things were getting chaotic. Ultimately the images never deliver the control that they promise. I would quickly slip back into the chaos that had been there before my "worship service". I wonder if this could also be related to the evangelical experience. Do we come together seeking to strip God of all mystery so we can make sense of a world that often just does not make sense? Will hundred's of churches across the US drape a flag over the cross this week because it's just too much to imagine a God who loves all God's creation and not just the part that "deserves" God's love? (that may be a rant for another day.) In the end this God we seem to know so well slips away and we're left in our chaos. Just some thoughts and questions I had after reading your post. Thank you for your insights. It’s made me think about my own recovery from pornography and how I used it as a way to control my world when things were getting chaotic. Ultimately the images never deliver the control that they promise. I would quickly slip back into the chaos that had been there before my “worship service”. I wonder if this could also be related to the evangelical experience. Do we come together seeking to strip God of all mystery so we can make sense of a world that often just does not make sense? Will hundred’s of churches across the US drape a flag over the cross this week because it’s just too much to imagine a God who loves all God’s creation and not just the part that “deserves” God’s love? (that may be a rant for another day.) In the end this God we seem to know so well slips away and we’re left in our chaos. Just some thoughts and questions I had after reading your post.

]]> http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1012 David Drury Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:46:46 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1012 Wow. Should be published. Wow. Should be published.

]]> http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1011 kim fabricius Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:36:50 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1011 Thanks, Ben, for such an insightful post. It might be a short contemporary commentary on the incident in Exodus 32 of the worship of the golden hung-like-a-bull calf - which, of course, is meant to represent, not replace, Yahweh - with its own "promiscuous experientialism".In <I>God against Religion: Rethinking Christian Theology through Worship</I> (2008), Matthew Myer Boulton writes of "this strange coupling [!] - secrecy as a condition of intimacy." He observes that "There are always things we do not know, as well as things we should not know. Genuine intimacy involves secrecy, both secrecy that covers up what should be uncovered, but secrecy that - out of love and wisdom - refrains from uncovering what should remain covered." Influenced by Barth, Boulton would appreciate your model of veiling-unveiling. You are also, however, right to warn against a rush to ritualism. Quite apart from the fact that the evangelical-charismatic money-shot is not the only type of liturgical boredom, and, further, as James Alison points out, that there is a proper liturgical boredom as "a long-term education in becoming un-excited", as long as we are motivated by the question "What will I get out of this act of worship" it is unlikely that we will be worshipping <I>God</I> whether we are in a chapel or a cathedral, an arena or a hut. Thanks, Ben, for such an insightful post. It might be a short contemporary commentary on the incident in Exodus 32 of the worship of the golden hung-like-a-bull calf - which, of course, is meant to represent, not replace, Yahweh - with its own “promiscuous experientialism”.In God against Religion: Rethinking Christian Theology through Worship (2008), Matthew Myer Boulton writes of “this strange coupling [!] - secrecy as a condition of intimacy.” He observes that “There are always things we do not know, as well as things we should not know. Genuine intimacy involves secrecy, both secrecy that covers up what should be uncovered, but secrecy that - out of love and wisdom - refrains from uncovering what should remain covered.” Influenced by Barth, Boulton would appreciate your model of veiling-unveiling. You are also, however, right to warn against a rush to ritualism. Quite apart from the fact that the evangelical-charismatic money-shot is not the only type of liturgical boredom, and, further, as James Alison points out, that there is a proper liturgical boredom as “a long-term education in becoming un-excited”, as long as we are motivated by the question “What will I get out of this act of worship” it is unlikely that we will be worshipping God whether we are in a chapel or a cathedral, an arena or a hut.

]]> http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1010 Andreas Östling Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:16:13 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1010 I just stumbled on your blog and this is the first post I read. It was so nice that I have now added it to my RSS-feeds. Really well written and thought provoking. I just stumbled on your blog and this is the first post I read. It was so nice that I have now added it to my RSS-feeds. Really well written and thought provoking.

]]> http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1009 Bob Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:03:17 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1009 Ben - been reading your blog for quite a while now, and this piece is insightful and superbly written. I liked the song, too. I'd like to reflect a bit on this in my own blog - I'm grateful to you for starting off a train of thought. Ben - been reading your blog for quite a while now, and this piece is insightful and superbly written. I liked the song, too. I’d like to reflect a bit on this in my own blog - I’m grateful to you for starting off a train of thought.

]]> http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1008 John P. Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:21:52 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1008 Ben - thanks for the helpful thoughts. I am working on a paper about spectatorship in the Christian life and this touches on some areas I have been thinking about for a while.By the way, I don't know if you have ever come across an essay by George Steiner titled "Night Words," but it is about this very topic (i.e. the "laying bare" of our most intimate thoughts in pornographic writing). I found it incredibly helpful and intriguing.thanks again. Ben - thanks for the helpful thoughts. I am working on a paper about spectatorship in the Christian life and this touches on some areas I have been thinking about for a while.By the way, I don’t know if you have ever come across an essay by George Steiner titled “Night Words,” but it is about this very topic (i.e. the “laying bare” of our most intimate thoughts in pornographic writing). I found it incredibly helpful and intriguing.thanks again.

]]> http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1007 D.W. Congdon Tue, 21 Aug 2007 01:20:48 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1007 Ben,Thanks for this post. As you may remember from our conversations, this is a topic that hits "close to home." Having grown up within the experiential-evangelical world, I saw many of my friends make the journey to Canterbury or Rome or Constantinople. I still feel a strong pull to the Anglican Church.That said, I don't think the draw to more liturgical and ritualistic churches is limited to or even primarily about a reaction to the "unbearable boredom" of evangelicalism -- though this is certainly a major reason for many, I'm sure. Most of the people I knew who reacted against their evangelical roots had other concerns on their mind, though they weren't any more worthwhile as reasons than the one described here.Some of these reasons include: a desire for an authority (and authority structure) outside of the individual person reading Scripture; a concern for visible communion with Christians all over the world; a desire to abandon and preclude the personality cults surrounding many evangelical preachers by placing the Eucharist at the center of worship; a need for liturgical structure and rhythm; an interest in the church calendar; a concern about remaining faithful to the traditions of the church and having a living connection to communities of the past (i.e., an interest in ecclesial continuity); a desire for theological substance where evangelical churches are often theologically vacuous; and simply a desire for less clap-happy religion and shorter sermons.While the strong attraction to mystery is certainly a factor, I am not sure it can be made as central a factor as the post seems to indicate. I say that because the most popular "Anglican" churches around Wheaton College were the "evangelical Anglican" churches which combined the elements that answered most of the issues listed above with the same highly experiential form of worship.Perhaps it's not that these Christians were looking for a God who is more veiled than unveiled, as you suggest. Perhaps it is rather that they found in Anglican, Catholic, and Orthodox worship <I>an even more experiential worship</I> than they had before. These liturgies employ all five senses where the American evangelical churches do not. The use of iconography, incense, call and response, etc., are all very experiential. Whether these were elements of a more hidden and mysterious God are possibly beside the point. I might argue instead that these fellow Christians found in these older traditions a more fulfilling form of worship, precisely because it is more experiential. Just a thought. Ben,Thanks for this post. As you may remember from our conversations, this is a topic that hits “close to home.” Having grown up within the experiential-evangelical world, I saw many of my friends make the journey to Canterbury or Rome or Constantinople. I still feel a strong pull to the Anglican Church.That said, I don’t think the draw to more liturgical and ritualistic churches is limited to or even primarily about a reaction to the “unbearable boredom” of evangelicalism — though this is certainly a major reason for many, I’m sure. Most of the people I knew who reacted against their evangelical roots had other concerns on their mind, though they weren’t any more worthwhile as reasons than the one described here.Some of these reasons include: a desire for an authority (and authority structure) outside of the individual person reading Scripture; a concern for visible communion with Christians all over the world; a desire to abandon and preclude the personality cults surrounding many evangelical preachers by placing the Eucharist at the center of worship; a need for liturgical structure and rhythm; an interest in the church calendar; a concern about remaining faithful to the traditions of the church and having a living connection to communities of the past (i.e., an interest in ecclesial continuity); a desire for theological substance where evangelical churches are often theologically vacuous; and simply a desire for less clap-happy religion and shorter sermons.While the strong attraction to mystery is certainly a factor, I am not sure it can be made as central a factor as the post seems to indicate. I say that because the most popular “Anglican” churches around Wheaton College were the “evangelical Anglican” churches which combined the elements that answered most of the issues listed above with the same highly experiential form of worship.Perhaps it’s not that these Christians were looking for a God who is more veiled than unveiled, as you suggest. Perhaps it is rather that they found in Anglican, Catholic, and Orthodox worship an even more experiential worship than they had before. These liturgies employ all five senses where the American evangelical churches do not. The use of iconography, incense, call and response, etc., are all very experiential. Whether these were elements of a more hidden and mysterious God are possibly beside the point. I might argue instead that these fellow Christians found in these older traditions a more fulfilling form of worship, precisely because it is more experiential. Just a thought.

]]> http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1006 dan Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:51:54 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1006 A valiant, and well-written effort, Ben, but I think I'm going to (attempt to) disagree.The pornographer isn't seeking mystery -- the pornographer is seeking intimacy (Kim alludes to this -- but I want to ensure that the two aren't collapsed into each other).To simply veil the body, isn't enough. For the pornographer knows, better than the rest of us, that a veiled body is still just a body. It is intimacy that is the mystery for the pornographer; it is intimacy that forever falls out of his or her reach. The veiled body? The pornographer knows all about that -- he or she has mastered the art of producing the strip-tease.(BTW, Ben, I'm basing these thoughts upon conversations I have had with sex workers over the years in which I have worked with them.)Thus, I would suggest that the recent number of evangelical conversions to Rome and Constantinople isn't based upon a prior quest for a <I>Deus nudus</I>, but is based upon their prior experience of a God who isn't there. This isn't simply a <I>Deus absconditus</I>; rather, it is the experience of genuine godforsakenness.We seek intimacy with God; but God has remained unfound within our churches. I suspect, once we get beyond the spectacle of new rituals, we will also not find the intimacy for which we are yearning.Instead of following these rabbit trails, I suggest we heed the words of Porfirio Miranda:<I>The question is not whether or not someone looks for God, but whether he [or she] looks for God where God himself said he was.</I>Thus, the intimacy we seek with God, is to be found in the company of the poor. A valiant, and well-written effort, Ben, but I think I’m going to (attempt to) disagree.The pornographer isn’t seeking mystery — the pornographer is seeking intimacy (Kim alludes to this — but I want to ensure that the two aren’t collapsed into each other).To simply veil the body, isn’t enough. For the pornographer knows, better than the rest of us, that a veiled body is still just a body. It is intimacy that is the mystery for the pornographer; it is intimacy that forever falls out of his or her reach. The veiled body? The pornographer knows all about that — he or she has mastered the art of producing the strip-tease.(BTW, Ben, I’m basing these thoughts upon conversations I have had with sex workers over the years in which I have worked with them.)Thus, I would suggest that the recent number of evangelical conversions to Rome and Constantinople isn’t based upon a prior quest for a Deus nudus, but is based upon their prior experience of a God who isn’t there. This isn’t simply a Deus absconditus; rather, it is the experience of genuine godforsakenness.We seek intimacy with God; but God has remained unfound within our churches. I suspect, once we get beyond the spectacle of new rituals, we will also not find the intimacy for which we are yearning.Instead of following these rabbit trails, I suggest we heed the words of Porfirio Miranda:The question is not whether or not someone looks for God, but whether he [or she] looks for God where God himself said he was.Thus, the intimacy we seek with God, is to be found in the company of the poor.

]]> http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1005 nathaniel drake carlson Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:40:41 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1005 I agree with dan 100% in regards to pornography. However, I disagree somewhat with this statement: "I suspect, once we get beyond the spectacle of new rituals, we will also not find the intimacy for which we are yearning."Actually, I just disagree with his emphasis. And maybe I don't even disagree with that...A better way to put it is that I <EM>take issue</EM> with the finality or definitiveness of this statement. If the "spectacle" he speaks of is reduced to mere experientalism then, yes, it will result in the same sense of lacking. If, however, the experience of ritual is engaged with as something beyond superficial affectation or some kind of spectacle for its own sake aesthetic reward then maybe with head and heart thus engaged it can be seen to offer up exactly the access to intimacy (as with prayer when employed beyond mere functionality) that the adherent presumably lacks. I agree with dan 100% in regards to pornography. However, I disagree somewhat with this statement: “I suspect, once we get beyond the spectacle of new rituals, we will also not find the intimacy for which we are yearning.”Actually, I just disagree with his emphasis. And maybe I don’t even disagree with that…A better way to put it is that I take issue with the finality or definitiveness of this statement. If the “spectacle” he speaks of is reduced to mere experientalism then, yes, it will result in the same sense of lacking. If, however, the experience of ritual is engaged with as something beyond superficial affectation or some kind of spectacle for its own sake aesthetic reward then maybe with head and heart thus engaged it can be seen to offer up exactly the access to intimacy (as with prayer when employed beyond mere functionality) that the adherent presumably lacks.

]]> http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1004 J*Rob Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:59:25 +0000 http://www.faithnaked.com/the-pornographers-dream-or-the-problem-with-contemporary-worship#comment-1004 Great song, great post. Thanks!The shift from nudity to intimacy seems relatively immaterial.. same song second verse and all that. Great song, great post. Thanks!The shift from nudity to intimacy seems relatively immaterial.. same song second verse and all that.

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